Talonite MEUK by Allen Blade

A shot of a MEUK this one is in 52100 with a full convex grind by Ed Caffrey :

The other blades are a Sub-Sniper and MNK. The Talonite MEUK decribed in this review was sabre-hollow ground.

The review consists of :

• specifications
• general work : cutting ability
• edge retention
• ease of sharpening
• corrosion resistance
• durability
• grip
• overview
• comments and references

Specifications

The MEUK (multi-environment utility knife) knife was made Allen Blade by stock removal out of Talonite. The MEUK has a four inch blade with a drop point format and sports a sabre hollow primary grind which tapers to a 0.03" thick edge which is ground at about twenty degrees per side. The handle has a mortise tang construction and fully encloses the handle.

UPDATE : After this review was written Allan Blade had business problems. Years later there are still people who he owes money and knives : ref].

Cutting performance

Using the MEUK on some miscellaneous cord and fabric, rubber tubing, pine, cardboard, and meats and vegetables the performance was similar to a the F1 from Fallkniven which has a similar edge profile and overall geometry. No difference was noted in the cutting ability of Talonite as compared to the VG-10 F1 when both had similar finishes in regards to slicing aggression or push cutting.

Edge holding

The MEUK was compared against a D2 custom by Mel Sorg hardened to 62 RC. The blades were used to cut 1/8" ridged with the sharpness measured by slicing rolls of fabric :

UPDATE : after the first run the Talonite blade was freshly sharpened but the D2 knife just got a few strokes on an 800 grit ceramic rod which essentially acted as a smooth steel and left the edge highly weakened. This is why it probably blunted much more in the second round. This was one of the earlier reviews and at that time the edge retention degredation with smooth steeling wasn't known.

The MEUK was also compared to a Fallkniven F1 in VG-10 was also used for some cardboard cutting alongside the Talonite MEUK, 19.7 meters were cut with each blade and the sharpness was determined by cutting on rubber and fabric :

UPDATE : note how the fabric is much more sensitive than the rubber, which is a poor choice for determining sharpness as it is very dependent on geometry. It would have been informative to note here just how the sharpness was being measured, it was probably length of edge required to cut the fabric and rubber under a specific load.

The blades were honed with ten strokes on an 800 grit ceramic rod and ten on a loaded strop. The Talonite blade was now scraping sharp and the F1 a little worse. Fifteen passes on a fine DMT rod and ten on the ceramic rod left both blades push shaving sharp. As a final rough comparison the MEUK was compared to a ATS-34 F1 on cardboard comparison. Both blades were honed on an x-coarse DMT hone and then stropped a couple of times leaving a very rough finish. After cutting 340 pieces of index card stock each, alternating between each bade every twenty five cuts, neither showed a significant performance loss. The edges when then polished with 150 strokes per side on an 800 grit Japanese waterstone and finished with fifteen passes per side on a ceramic rod. Then 27.3 meters of 1/8" ridged cardboard were cut with each blade with the sharpness determined by slicing fabric :

Both blades could still cut the cardboard at the end but had a tendency to slip on the initial cut and sometimes bend the cardboard. To sharpen the knives just required seven strokes on a ceramic rod and they were again push shaving sharp and sliced through the fabric just as they had before the cardboard cutting. The cutting ability and edge retention of the Talonite MEUK was later examined in more detail as compared to various steels and multiple grit finishes :

• Talonite vs CPM-10V at a high polished
• Talonite vs VG-10 at a medium finish
• Talonite vs D2 at a coarse finish

In short Talonite was found to offers no edge retention advantage even over VG-10, and was vastly outperformed by the CPM-10V knife. In retrospect it would have been useful to see all blades at each finish.

The effect of difference edge finishes on sharpness and edge retention

Looking at the results in more detail with a focus just on how the Talonite behaves at difference finishes :

As the edge is made more coarse the initial push cutting ability on the string is lower and the push cutting edge retention during the cutting is lower. With a high polish the Talonite MEUK is able to cut four times as much cardboard as with a coarse edge and suffers the same degree of blunting. However Examining the slicing quality the MEUK does slice better at a more coarse finish, however the more coarse edge is rapidly degraded as cardboard is cut :

In short, Talonite does show a greater edge aggression as the edge is left more coarse just as is found with steel blades. However the very low hardness causes a rapid onset of blunting which quickly degrades the cutting performance in both push cutting and slicing. In contrast, steel blades have the opposite behavior and will have better edge holding for slicing when the finishes are left more coarse, as noted in the work with the AUS-4A M16.

Durability

The ATS-34 F1 and Talonite MEUK were used to make slices two to four millimeters in length at a high angle (45+ degrees) in a mild steel bar. Both came back to push shaving sharp after some steeling and 5 strokes on a fine ceramic rod. Cutting graphite rods caused both blades to blunt rapidly. After 300 slices about four centimeters long both blades were very blunt and would even fail the thumbnail test.

After five passes on a smooth steel the MEUK could shave significantly better than the ATS-34 F1. A ceramic rod seemed to make little difference so a fine DMT rod was used to fully restore the edges. Twenty five passes per side followed by five per side on the ceramic rod left the MEUK push shaving sharp. However the F1 needed more extensive honing on a 800 grit Japanese waterstone. This seemed to indicate that the MEUK has stronger wear resistance, but later cutting on cardboard showed that the MEUK blunted quite rapidly and needed a full honing just like the F1 to get back to optimal performance.

The MEUK was also used to cut some cable. Twenty pulls were performed through a six millimeter wire composed of three bundles of fifty strands of copper wire. This was followed by ten pulls through five millimeter wire composed of four bundles of twenty strands of 0.5 millimeter copper wire. Finally the blade was used to cut through some slight two millimeter cable containing two groups of seven sections of 0.5 millimeter copper wire. After the wire cutting the blades ability to shave was significantly reduced. Paracord was then used to check sharpness, and examine the effect of some light honing :

The steeling made a huge effect indicating deformation was the major source of blunting as expected due to the low harness. No chips were visible under 10X magnification and after the ceramic rod was used the edge was basically at 100% and would push shave. In retrospect it would have been useful to compare this to another knife for the same work.

The Talonite MEUK and VG-10 F1 were used for one hundred chops into pine, very light just rotation from the elbow, penetration of two to four millimeters. The knives were then used to slice up the bottom of a coke bottle and cut five pieces of cable, four groups of 16 0.5 millimeter copper strands. Finally both knives were used to whittled about fifty slices from a mild steel bar.

This cutting didn't significantly effect the VG-10 F1. No rolling or chips were visible under 10X mag. The Talonite blade handled the wood and plastic cutting without problems but after the metal slicing the edge was roughed up and magnification revealed multiple chips about 0.1 millimeter in size, large enough to be felt by thumbnail. With fifty passes on a smooth steel. The F1 slice shaved well and the Talonite blade was slightly better. After ten passes on a 800 grit ceramic rod both are back push shaving sharp. However the small chips on the Talonite blade are still visible under magnification, a much more extensive honing would be required to remove them.

Both blades were then used to cut a cable made up of four bundles of five wires that were half a millimeter thick which surrounded a a central half millimeter steel wire all surrounded by a foil jacket. Thirty pull cuts were made with both blades. This was followed by twenty pull cuts through one 1 millimeter thick copper wire. Finally the knives were used to push cut into/through five staples in 1/8" ridged cardboard. The cardboard was extended out past the end of a 1x4 board and three runs were made with each blade.

After the wire cutting the VG-10 F1 was very wore down however the Talonite blade showed multiple chips about 0.1 millimeter in depth and fracture/stress lines running along most of the edge. After the staple cutting the F1 had several pieces about four millimeters long and from 0.1 to 0.2 millimeters deep missing from the edge. The stress lines on the MEUK got worse and were now extended to about 0.2 millimeter deep for most of the edge. A smooth steel was used for fifty passes followed by twenty five on a fine ceramic rod. The MEUK was now push shaving sharp and the F1 scraping hair. Twenty five passes on a fine DMT rod and ten on the ceramic rod restore the F1 to push shaving sharp. One one small section about two millimeters long was reflecting light from the edge.

Both blades were then used to chop into a coat hanger, holding the knives by the end of handle with thumb and forefinger. Light chops were used, just a wrist flick. Fifty chops were made with each blade, both made similar levels of cuts into the coat-hanger. The F1 had a few stress lines visible under 10X magnifications but no chips. The Talonite MEUK was indented about 0.2 to 0.3 millimeters in depth at each impact point including a large chip about 0.3 millimeters deep and 1.5 millimeter long. After 50 strokes on a 200 grit SiC hone the F1 was back to 100%, after 100 strokes on the same hone the damage on the Talonite blade was only reduced to 0.15 millimeters in depth.

As a consistency check the work was repeated with the Talonite MEUK and the ATS-34 F1 which has a but more acute edge with a slightly harder blade than the VG-10 F1. Both blades were brought up to push shaving sharp, using an 800 grit Japanese waterstone and finishing on am 800 grit ceramic rod.

First five pull cuts were made through some lamp wire, next ten pulls through one millimeter thick copper wire. The ATS-34 F1 had four small chips about 0.1 x 0.2 millimeters . The Talonite MEUK showed no chips but several sections stressed about 0.1 to 0.2 millimeters deep which extended about one to three millimeters in length. Slices where then made into a mild steel bar about 50 times which made no significant difference to either knife.

At this point both blades cut cardboard decently well, the edges were rough. The knives would also slice shave hair a little. Fifty light chops were again performed into coat hanger wire which caused the ATS-34 F1 to chip, eight fractures 0.4 millimeters deep and one millimeter long. The Talonite MEUK had a couple of small chips about 0.1 millimeter deep and 0.3 millimeters long and several large stress regions about 0.1 - 0.2 millimeter deep and 1 millimeter long.

More staple cutting was performed, both blades had trouble, the F1 could only make nine cuts and the MEUK twelve. Their performance was impaired because of the damage from the previous work. A a mild steel bar two feet long and five millimeters in diameter was dropped from two feet onto the blades, and them from four feet, 10 times each. This had no effect.

Finally, both blades were used to chisel cut through a coat hanger with a a small piece of pine about four inches in diameter used as a baton. The blades made about 0.5 to 1.0 millimeters of penetration. Ten cuts were made with the ATS-34 blade which chipped out a little. Five cuts were made with the Talonite blade and the cutting stopped the MEUK was indenting up to one millimeter in depth and four millimeters long.

To restore the edge, fifty strokes on a butchers steel were used on the F1. A few chips remained but the edge was nicely aligned. After one hundred passes on the Talonite blade the edge got pushed back into decent shape, but the butchers steel was also acting on a file on the Talonite due to its low hardness. To remove the edge damage on the F1 required two hundred passes an 8" x-coarse DMT bench stone. After five hundred with the same stone on the Talonite blade, the damage was only reduced to about 0.3 x 1.0 millimeters at maximum. After another two hundred and fifty strokes per side there was no damage visible. To finish the honing required one hundred and fifty strokes per side on an 800 grit Japanese waterstone, and a few swipes on an an 800 grit ceramic rod which produced a push shaving sharp edge.

As for prying, The Talonite MEUK was used for some light stabs into pine, one centimeter of penetration. The blade is very weak due to the low hardness of the Talonite as the knife could not even effectively pry out wood even with this shallow of penetration. It quickly took a permanent bend in the tip of the blade, a deflection of about one millimeter with the bend running about five millimeters back from the tip for a deflection of about 10 degrees. The tip was straightened by prying the opposite way in the wood.

Corrosion resistance

The main advantage of Talonite is the extreme corrosion resistance. The MEUK ignored exposure to acidic fruits and vegetables and was left wet for extended periods of time without any effect. For comparison to several well known stainless steels, the Talonite MEUK, VG-10 and ATS-34 F1's, and a D2 custom from Mel Sorg were soaked in a a solution of four tablespoons of table salt in a half litre of tap water for nine hours. The VG-10 F1 had a couple of rust spots (one millimeter in size) and some very light rusting along a one centimeter section of the edge. The ATS-34 F1 had about 25% more corrosion. The D2 blade had well over twenty five small rust spots.

After nineteen hours the ATS-34 F1 had about 35 small rust spots roughly one millimeter in diameter. There were also two large areas about three to four millimeters across that actually had an outline of rust visibly raised off of the blade by about half a millimeter which also had rust trailing from them like comet tails. The VG-10 F1 seemed significantly less effected. The two previous spots had grown to about two millimeters in size and the edge had a light coat along one side of about two centimeters on one side and one centimeter on the other. The D2 knife had sixty five little rust spots about one millimeter in size, eight large irregular patches about three to four millimeters in size some having tails similar to the ATS-34 blade. The Talonite blade had a light coat of rust along the edge, which was just a deposit from the rust floating in the water.

To examine the edge degredation the knives were used to cut rubber and light cord. The stainless and D2 edges would skate over the rope to a large degree until a rough patch on the edge induced a little aggression. Cutting up light card stock showed similar, a lot of ripping little cutting. Under 10x magnification all the knives except for the Talonite one had pieces missing from the edges about 0.1 millimeters in size. A quick thumbnail check revealed the chips easily.

An eight inch x-coarse DMT bench stone was used on the VG-10 F1. After fifty strokes on both sides the edge had started to fall apart. A more aggressive 200 grit 8" silicon carbide hone was used. After another fifty passes the edge showed chips up to 0.3 millimeters in depth and strips of the edge about one millimeter long and 0.05 millimeters had broken off. The honing was repeated with the silicon carbide stone on the ATS-34 and D2 knife and they were effected badly as well. The edge on the ATS-34 blade seemed to be penetrated to a slightly lower depth but had more frequent damage, about five chips to every four on the VG-10 blade. The D2 edge was damaged along its entire length from very small chips about 0.05 millimeters in depth up to pieces about about 0.2 millimeters in depth but extending for about one millimeter.

The edge was restored on the VG-10 blade with two passes on a one inch belt sander with a 220 grit aluminum oxide belt. This left a burr about 0.1 millimeter in depth along the entire length of the blade which was removed with the silicon carbide hone, 50 strokes per side. The soaking was repeated and again similar damage was induced. This time the edge was fully sharpened using bench stones. Four hundred passes per side on the x-coarse SiC hone created a clean edge which was polished on an 800 grit ceramic to a shaving sharp finish. Several more salt water soaks were performed with the the stainless blades and the performance was consistent. Talonite was shown to be rust proof in environments that will cause severe functional performance loss in the steels such as D2, ATS-34 and VG-10.

Handle

No significant problems were found with security or discomfort with the grip on the MEUK. However with extended heavy cutting, after about one hundred and fifty slices or so into hardwood for example, the grooves in the Micarta on the top of the handle would start to be a hot spot.

Concerning abrasion resistance and impacts, Micarta is much more durable than many handle materials such as stacked leather or Kraton. It is possible to deform Micarta more readily than say G10 under direct impacts, but this would only be a concern if you actually wanted to use it for an extended period of time hammering on hard objects. The low heat conductivity of Micarta also makes it very easy to work with in extreme temperatures. Because it does not transfer heat well, and the grip has no exposed metal parts , the handle is comfortable even in very low temperatures.

Comments have been made on the web by some custom makers such as Kevin McClung that Micarta will absorb gasoline and thus can burn for an extended period of time as opposed to G10/G11. The MEUK was soaked in gas for about fifteen minutes. In less than thirty seconds after being removed from the gasoline all traces evaporated and no sustained flame could be produceed. Gas was then poured on the grip and then ignited. This just left the handle slightly warm.

Overview

Talonite was found to be rust proof in regards to salt water and mild food acids and can endure environments that will seriously degrade even stainless steels like VG-10 and ATS-34. In regards to edge holding, on most cutting because the low hardness causes the edge to be readily rolled. It is easily outperformed by one of the better edge holding steels, unless the environment is highly corrosive.

The low hardness also limits the edge geometry. Talonite can not be ground as thin as a quality steel blade because it doesn't have the strength because it is so soft. This directly limits the cutting ability. No inherent "aggression" was noted in Talonite versus steels at the same grit finish. In general, as long is the edge is not over-stressed, Talonite tends to be easier to sharpen than many blade steels because of the low hardness which means it can actually be filed readily with a butcher steel. However it is difficult to get a crisp edge because of the softness.

The edge was a little thick. Since the blade material is unsuited to heavy work, the profile should be one optimized for a pure light use cutting tool. The finish on Talonite blades should take into account its "slickness". No coatings are necessary for corrosion resistance and make actually hinder cutting ability by having a ore resistive finish than bare Talonite.

Comments and references

Comments can be sent to : cliffstamp[REMOVE]@cutleryscience.com. Feedback can also be seen in the following ARCHIVED thread on Bladeforums :

• Talonite MEUK from Allen Blade